Put it like that then I agree with most with what you say :)

I think geoff thompsons done some excellent stuff too! I wouldnt agree personally with everything he says - but then again even he now doesnt agree with everything hes said before now (source: martial arts instructor friend after a personal chat with geoff). Some excellent theories but application can be problematic.

I still don't agree with the `can't hit = can't fight' - its being too specific for my liking and discussion seems to be biased on trained punchers going for the head rather than your average pub brawly fight that breaks out. Also assums your capable of putting in a decent punch and doesnt account for damage to you.

But in the interests of research Ive just asked a friend of mine who works in one of the, erm, `less friendly` pubs in the area (scene of _many_ fights, group brawls, police intervention and what not...but you dont want to kick off there as the land lord is rather tasty)
....

a common situation....
m: Me
h: Him

h: 'face to face, often one talking quietly so the other has to lean in to hear and then - BANG - he nuts him with his heed'

m: 'how many of these people get up close then SMACK knock out time to the head'
h: 'not really knock outs ever but these people are brawlers, grab with one hand and then bludgen face with fist'

m: 'what about the someone you think is going to attack you and before they do (geoff thomspson style) get in there with a big hit'
h: 'oh thats bollocks, it can and i've seen it work. but it's when people flip out it becomes nasty'

m: 'of the `matey A and matey B come in at each other, get real close, then one throws a suprise wack at the other` type of fights - how often does that actually work and how often does that just lead onto a mess'
h: 'if people start shouting getting up close, it'll get slpit up every time, maybe one or two smacks in the mouth. often if one person is not expecting it the will just lose straight away hit the deck and get a shoing'
[note: thats a `suprise` attack/not yet in fight mode hes talking about, not a `arguing away and someone suddenly takes a swing`]
m: 'otherwise the other person just gets straight back up and gets stuck in eh?'
h: 'well often they don't go down' - 'how you deal with a pounch is as much mental as physical.' - 'i've been hit real fucking hard and stayed standing because i was angry and in survival mode, i knew floor ment the end, i stayed up' - 'i've been hit not so hard but not been up for it and it'll put me down' - 'if you hit the deck it's over'

personally - I stay away from that pub :)

I know from personal experience that a big hit (when that mugger tried to mug me) did bugger all - and I wasnt expecting it!

I supose its what situations you let yourself get into.

Out of all the real situations (drunks/attacks/etc.) that my students have actually experienced over the past couple of years and passed on to me - that ive heard of ive only ever had one (a yellow belt I think at the time) who didnt really come out happy - and they werent at a level they could really positivly use their jitsu in the situation they found themselves in. The only really bad thing that came out of it was the shock value from what I heard.

All the rest have got through with either a wrist lock from a grab, a throw from a grab/punch and straight into the odd arm lock. The majority from nothing more than words.

One of our smallest ever members found a burgler in her kitchen and f'ed and b'ed at him so much he just ran off

Another member in manchester had 4 guys try to mug him for his mobile phone - he confronted the `leader` - berbalised a load at him, walked off (then ran when around the corner)

Older member - he was being followed by 2 people on the street. he crossed the road several times, did all the stuff you shoudl do to see if someones following you. He got to a zebra crossing - turned to an imaginary invisible kid and shouted `just wait till I get you home to your mum` - the 2 followers stopped, looked at each other and obviously thought `this guy is nuts` and left.

I stopped that fight in a club just by putting my hand up and saying `no` :)

Im sure some of you have experienced more of the other side of things. It still boils down to how much time do you and your students have to train - how do you use that time most effectivly. In an ideal world all day every day and wed be great at everything. Also your students might not want to do certain things. I know if I was more into pounding someone I wouldnt be doing jitsu - id be doing something more like tie-boxing or the like.

back to you lot :) (good discussion this)